Monday, February 10, 2014

The Gap Between Thin and Plus Size


I rarely write posts purely about bodies because, as you all know, my focus is boobs no matter which bodies they live on. For a long time though something has been niggling away at the back of my mind then last week 2 things happened that made up my mind about writing this post. As a size US 8/10 (UK 12-14) I have never identified as a skinny person, apart from maybe when I was 9 and my haircut and knees were the biggest parts of me. I developed hips and boobs as a teenager and they've stayed consistently prominent throughout my adult years. Considering I have some major curves going on I've never identified as a Plus Sized person either. I don't need to seek Plus Size retailers to find clothes that fit and I don't encounter many of the physical or emotional situations that I read about from Plus Sized women. So if I'm not skinny or plus sized, what am I in the realms of social discussion? Apparently I, like the millions of other women, don't warrant discussion because I don't fit neatly into either of the two body boxes.

Last week there was a news piece doing the social media rounds about a school girl who started a petition to encourage Disney to create a plus sized princess. I think this is a great idea for more diverse representation from an iconic company, however, this kind of thing happens a lot where the two options seem to be 'thin' or 'plus sized' which bypasses the millions of women who don't identify as either. I don't look at a Disney princess and think "Yeah, I have those kind of proportions" but I also wouldn't see a plus size character and identify any more closely. Very rarely do we see people petitioning for a middle ground and I'm not really sure why.

With her defined tummy, hips and thighs Robyn Lawley is very relatable for lots of middle-sized women but she is almost constantly referred to as Plus Sized because the fashion industry only allows for 2 groups of size.

A topic that has been well discussed is the definition of Plus Size models. Robyn Lawley is a prolific model who at a size US 12 (UK 16) is considered Plus Size by the fashion industry but she's also over 6ft and proportionally akin to a size 10, 5ft 9 woman. I understand that the fashion industry is polarized into thin and plus size but Robyn looks proportionally like lots of us middle-sizers (bar the exquisite eyebrows perhaps!) but we're not allowed to have her as an ambassador because she gets allocated to Plus Sized where we don't identify.

I personally don't need validation from a slew of social media memes to help me define who I am. I am fortunate to feel very proud of my body and the person it houses so it's not for my own identification that I raise this question. However, lots of girls and women don't fall into the category of thin or plus sized and their fit and esteem issues are just as valid. It would be great if we didn't have such polarized 'categories' of bodies but it's naive not to recognize that 'thin' and 'plus size' have very visible representation in social media, retail and traditional media so where do you look if you don't fit neatly into either camp?

Elomi (left) is a predominantly Plus Size brand with most bands starting a 34. Cleo (right) is a predominantly Full Bust brand with most bands starting at a 28. The shaping needs of these two categories can be quite different.

The second occurrence that prompted this post was an article I read about finding good bra fit which said "if you have big boobs then you need a plus size bra and there are lots of brands to choose from, like Elomi". Yes, Elomi is a great plus size specialty brand, one that we are delighted to carry, but not all women with big boobs are plus sized!

When Paul and I created Butterfly Collection the lack of understanding around boob and body size was painfully apparent. The term Full Bust (meaning a 28-38 band size with a D-K+ cup) was almost unheard of when we began speaking to brands and customers alike. People kept trying to lump us in the Plus Sized category because they didn't know what else to do with us. And that's the problem for me. It's just lazy to ignore that body size and shape is far more diverse than just thin or plus size and the fact that a term like full bust is so hard for people to grasp shows the lack of language and understanding around body diversity.

It's because of this stereotypical idea that big boobs live on big bodies that I wanted to raise this subject. If you aren't a plus size woman but you also don't fit into the 'shapes' of Victoria's Secret, strapless tops and thigh gaps then it can be difficult to know where to look for retail help and social empathy and I hope we can change that by changing our language around body shapes.
 
Kat Dennings, Christina Hendricks and Mindy Kaling are all public figures who I can identify with on a physical level and they've all been labeled as plus size at some point by a polarized 'thin' or 'plus size' rhetoric

If you identify as a Plus Sized woman then there are a huge number of blogs, stores, public figures, resources and shows that identify as Plus Size and so are easy to seek out. If you're a size 8, 32G with big hips, no bum and a trim waist then finding people, blogs, stores and advice that empathize is a little trickier. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Does it matter if there isn't a mass representation and language around middle-sizers? Am I underestimating the representation that already exists? Let me know what you think xx

51 comments:

  1. Love this! I have been fat all my life and I still identify as such. However I used to be bigger than I am now and I no longer have the same issues around not being able to find clothes at "regular" stores or many of the other issues that go along with being actually plus-sized. I would love to see a larger variety of body types represented...including plus-sized models AS WELL AS models sized 8-14 that aren't called "plus-sized" because we have this binary. The Elomi model fits beautifully into her bra but if you saw her in real life you'd never think of her as plus-sized...because she's not.

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    1. You're right, the binary keeps us from seeing a greater variety of sizes. When so many women have body shapes that are neither mainstream thin or plus size it seems crazy that we don't have language and visual representation for them. Thank you for commenting! xx

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  2. Such an excellent post. I completely fall into this nebulous category and have for my entire adult life. At least there are more choices now than there used to be :-) But really, finding 30-32 band G cup bras was life changing - as was learning to fit and sew my own wardrobe. Now, I call the shots.

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    1. Thank you K. Line. There are definitely more bra fit and clothing choices out there for busty women in the middle clothes sizes. Hopefully the language changes around these sizes so that women who don't yet know that there are more size options can access better fit xx

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    1. Thanks George, I'm so relieved it all made sense. I didn't want to appear to be trampling on either of the established size groups, just raise awareness that many women don't feel like they belong to either xx

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  4. Great post. As someone who has never been quite plus sized or regular sized just merely large chested and average... I have always felt under represented.

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    1. It is so strange Brandie that the millions of women who feel somewhere in between the sizes can't find mainstream images, role models and language that reflect them xx

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  5. Right now I am in the plus size camp (UK18), but for many years I was a size UK14, with DDD (actually in hindsight more like G/GG) boobs. Because I had big boobs and hips I assumed I was plus sized and while I sort of identified as being plus sized, I also sort of didn't... and was very confusing. There is a lot more out there currently focused at the "inbetweenie" sized woman which is great to see.

    But at the end of the day I think the best thing for me now, and for me at UK14, is to stop looking externally for role models and confirmation about who I am.

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    1. Hear-hear Rachel! The best confidence and peace comes from knowing yourself regardless of the noise and images around you. xx

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  6. Thanks so much for this thoughtful blog post. I am a size10/12 with a 32HH bust. I used to wear a 38DD and sew up the band until I went to the UK and a trip to a Bravissimo store changed my life. Shopping can be a nightmare and I always felt right in the middle I am not thin and plus size. I am happy to see folks like Robin Lawley and Christina Hendricks out there flag along with blogs like this. The word is getting out that there are options for the middle ground. At the end of the day it does not really matter what camp you fall into as long as you are confident and dress in a way that make you feel good. Thanks again Calista

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    1. I love this sentence " At the end of the day it does not really matter what camp you fall into as long as you are confident and dress in a way that make you feel good." Thank you for your lovely comments Calista xx

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  7. I would like to respond about what I consider an uncommon problem....I'm about 6 feet tall, big boned--I wear a man size shoe 12.5, have large man hands, wear a size 22 and wear a 38GG bra. I think a lot of my bust volume is from breast tissue over a large area expanse. My bust projection is really not any more than a cup size D. Most bras--plus sized for bust volume have too large of underwire because my band is only 38 or less and the bra straps are too short because of my height. I need a longer bra strap to reach down to band so it doesn't ride up. I really have a difficult time buying a bra because to get the bust volume, the bra seems designed for a short, stockier built woman. I have been trying to sew some bras, but that takes a lot of time and research to get the fit right. I wish bra sizers would take height into consideration. We aren't all misses petites nor all tall and thin.....I consider myself fairly normal, but just a bigger version of normal.

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    1. You definitely want to read the blog next week because it is precisely about this subject - How height affects your bra fit. I will be explaining what to look for depending on your body proportions and breast position. xx

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  8. I totally understand these comments, I am an unusual size, my top half is a UK size 20 and my bottom half is a UK 12/14. Until quite recently I looked upon my self as plus size but apart from my boobs I'm not really. Buying dresses is practically impossible though, I tend to buy separates. Wonder if anyone makes dresses with bigger tops and smaller bottoms?

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    1. Pink Clove (a UK plus size retailer) uses some clever fabrics that accommodate size differences top and bottom. Whether they would be right for you I don't know, but definitely worth a go xx

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    2. I hope Mrs b doesn't mind me mentioning a few companies who may work for anon (I'm not affiliated with any, BTW). Pink clove, biu biu, urkye, pepperberry, saint bustier, trashy diva and more are all good options. I hadn't worn a dress in at least 10 years before I discovered these companies simply because I couldn't find one that fitted both top and bottom half.

      In response to the mid size problem, I'm anywhere between a UK 14 and 20 (bottom vs top and between brands) and I take inspiration from many different sized bloggers.

      The whole plus sized model thing just skews the argument and, in my opinion, some people's perception of plus and non plus.

      Personally, I try not to label anyone as plus, non plus, skinny, super skinny, whatever. Everyone is different and that's how it should be. Maybe I'm over simplifying it, but I'm a simple soul...

      Love the blog, BTW

      Debra

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    3. I don't mind you sharing these designers at all Debra! xx

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  9. I am "plus size" (about a size 20 in the US), and I am not too enthusiastic about most plus size bras. I live in middle europe, and the choice is quite limited, and I find most plus bras to be quite granny-ish – no push-ups, soft cups that offer little support, straps too wide and so on. I would rather shop at a company like yours, ans I find this bras look better on my curvy body, and I know quite many other women who would, too.
    I think it is a shame that most of the "big bust" companies stop an 38 – I sometimes fit in a 38GG, but sometimes I long for a 40G that fits better, and they are so hard to find. Shopping at bravissimo.com can be frustrating, as most of the good bras stop at 38 – is it really so hard to make the same bras in a 40 or 42? I think it is a really overlooked market …

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    1. Where you live makes such a huge difference to your choices. Even though online shopping is available to most people it's tough when it's your only choice. The Sculptresse line from Panache is in its 4th season and it looks really good. All the support you want but with a fashion forward and pared down look. Elomi especially are paring down their styles because they've listened to women that they don't want quite so much bra over a 40 band xx

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  10. Great post! I especially find it difficult to refer to myself. If I say I like to see "bigger" models or actresses, I always get the reaction: "Being overweight isn't healty and shouldn't be promoted!" While in my mind I'm referring to people like me, the "inbetweens". So, right post at the right time!

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    1. That's the heart of the problem for me Ellebelle. We lack language outside of the polarized thin and plus size terminology. The fact that we're not sure what to call ourselves demonstrates the limited representation open to women xx

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  11. I am a 28HH and I find shopping is always difficult as trying to find anything which fits a problem. Most clothes shops cater to the two groups making it a challenge to find anything that fits without it looking like a sack or bring out through the top. I wish there was an option for those living the in between. Awesome post!

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    1. Thanks Marta. I think Europe is leading the way in bringing full bust clothing to the forefront. It's still woefully lacking in North America. I wrote a post about the companies focused on full bust women http://blog.butterflycollection.ca/2013/05/clothes-for-busty-women-in-canada-and.html xx

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  12. Yes, I've always fallen into the gap because I'm large-boned, hourglass, and tall. I've been quite thin in my life, but I would never identify as a "thin" woman because thin women don't have defined hips, broad shoulders, or full breasts in our vernacular. It didn't matter that my waist was hand-span size at one point. I'm still a "big" person. Still, I don't quite wear plus sizes even at my now heavier weight, and I don't have much of a tummy. It's aggravating when most clothes are designed for shorter, thicker-waisted, and narrow-shouldered women without many curves, but I realize I am not the norm. I actually don't care about identification so much, but I would like some clothes that fit.

    Generally, I identify with plus-sized models. Like me, they are not plus-sized, but they do tend to have bigger frames that are proportionate with their height. And, like me, they tend to be hourglass rather than pear or apple-shaped. However, I'm in my thirties, and models like this were never seen when I was younger. I was always struggling with the fact that I couldn't weigh >120 pounds like the models my height did.

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    1. This echoes an early comment that as a tall person in the middle sizes your representation in media, social and especially retail is very poor. Proportions are everything for comfort and purely from a bra point of view (as I would) height is a much over-looked factor in bra fit and design. I'm writing about this next week. Thank you very much for your insights. xx

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  13. I personally feel the thin or plus sized only categories do a lot of damage in the context of body shaming and size ideology. Because basically it's saying, thin is normal and everyone else is fat! I feel classing a size 10-14 (UK sizes) as plus sized is highly damaging. For one thing how is that going to make a size 20 woman feel if even a size 12 is classed as large! And secondly, how do woman who have seen them selves as normal or averaged sized their whole lives feel about being called plus sized? In the media and for most woman the term "plus sized" still means fat or big. What is this message saying to teenagers and young girls if we are saying that a size 12 is plus size? It's reinforcing the "if you're not a size 4-8 you're fat" message. There does need to be a full thin, normal-average and plus sized range represented, (and probably also supper thin and supper large categories too. Why should size 16 and size 28 be in the same category?) simply because in reality there is a whole range of woman! I guess my own ideology would be no categories or boxes at all, Just women. Plus sized in the modelling world has come to mean, any model that would not be taken up by the average modelling/fashion house because she is too big. But seeing as the standard fashion house size is still a 6-8 and some even lower, how on earth is everyone above that plus sized? We should not be normalising thinness and shaming normal sizes. I feel fairer representation is needed to prevent body shaming and to stop this culture of average sized women being told they are fat by society and media! I personally feel it's these middle/average sized women who should be representing the fashion world instead of the "thin" ones, rightfully classed as average sized woman, in order to give a more realistic representation of "normal" sizes. Or ideally really, every fashion brand should be forced to present their designs on a range of sizes, thin, average and genuinely plus sized, side by side.

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    1. Incredibly insightful comments Naz. The ultimate goal is your sentence "my own ideology would be no categories or boxes at all, Just women." xx

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  14. I look forward to the post on bra fit and height. I think it might be relevant to add that although I am 5'10," bra-fitters have told me I need a "petite" bra. This is because my breasts are set very high on my frame, making underwires too tall and straps a bit too long. I solve the problem with balconette bras. I just thought it was worth noting that even tall women can have quite different proportions. I am an extreme hourglass, and that may contribute to the weird placement of my breasts, as I've heard hourglasses tend to be shorter in the waist.

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    1. You're totally right that breast root position is vital in a conversation about proportions and bra fit. Rest assured that will be in the post xx

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  15. Thank you for this article Mrs. Butterfly! I definitely fall into the in-between category, because I used to be heavier, but have lost a significant amount of weight over the past few years, however, my bra size is still very non-typical and so it is hard for me to shop at regular bra stores sometimes. I am a petite girl, and my bra size (if correctly sized) is either a 30F or 32E and when I tell people, they are amazed. I also still have a lot of curves and together with my bra size, shopping for bathing suits is a real chore! But no one would know to look at me. I definitely think fashion and the media should better represent all sorts of body shapes, however, I do think this is getting better! Seeing actresses like Christina Hendricks gives me hope that the once sought after curvy silhouettes will once again become popular. Cheers!

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    1. I agree with your optimism Emilia that we are starting to see different silhouettes and long may that continue. 30F is one of the most common sizes we sell (it's in the top 10 of sizes every month) so you're definitely not alone. xx

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  16. I am 5ft 4, 40-30-42, and wear a size UK14 usually. I have never labelled myself as "plus-size"" as I associate it with ladies who are size 18+
    I do work in a store that caters for plus size ladies ranging from 14-26, so although I do fit into the smallest size there (which feels very weird!), they're still a bit too big as they're cut for a different body type (i.e someone with more of a tummy).
    But when I go into mainstream shops, the clothes are cut straight, and because I have big boobs and a small waist, they never fit right. Bra shopping is a nightmare, trying to find something pretty that's not made of horrible itchy lace, without huge seatbelt-like straps, that doesn't make my boobs look square, is a mission (I am a 30H). Then it's getting the band AND the cup to fit, most places that have smaller bands stop at a DD cup (or a G if they're feeling generous), but when I find a style that DOES go up to a H cup or above, the band sizes start at a 34 or 36 which is miles too big!
    I also dislike it immensely when people say to me "oh but you're well skinny" when I make a general comment about having a big bum (well, I do, no shame in it!). I have never been "skinny" nor do I have any desire to be. I enjoy being a bit on the bigger side- I'd label myself as "average", but I get shot down for that too because "the average size for a UK woman is a 16, and you're a 14....bla bla bla".
    So I often think, so what the heck am I then?!

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    1. The cut of clothes is incredibly important Amy. Straight sizes often don't account for enough curvature and plus size designs can have curvature in place a mid sizer doesn't need. On the bra front have you tried Cleo and Freya for 30H bras? Their straps are thinner the designs are fabulous and there is a range of cup shapes from full to shallow. We sell a huge number of 28 and 30 bands which is why I'm always surprised that lots of stores decide not to sell them xx

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  17. I love this! After my real size (28/30 g) no one would believe that I was telling the truth! The all though that only big girls could have big boobs. Even my mom was skeptical until I bravangelized her! After wearing 40DDs for years she's really a 36HH! She went from looking at "plus sized" bras to "full sized" & couldn't believe that she had never known the "fill sized" range existed.

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    1. Good for you and your Mom!! Full sized bras can be a very different fit than plus size and change the way your clothes fit and the position of your shoulders. I'm so glad you have found your best size early in your life xx

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  18. Size 6, 28 GG, wide hips, no bum, trimish waist ... I'm not alone lol :')

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  19. I'm also in the middle, being around US size 10 for tops, some people could call me plus size, based on that, but I can't identify with plus size (how could I? I have visible ribs and 24" waist, so completely different problems and look), So yeah... I think that industry and media really need to understand that not all people fall in two categories and there are a lot of diversity and they could have very loyal customers if they only were willing to make clothes for different body shapes not only sizes (actually some brands do that to certain extent, but so many do not bother) And they really need to stop calling plus size everybody who is not as thin as Victoria Beckham.

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  20. I just found your blog recently and am so glad! I am thin with a large chest and it is so hard to find bras that fit correctly! Even when I was a teenager it was painfully obvious to me that bras didn't fit like they should but I couldn't figure out what to do. I thought that there was no way that I was the only person in the world who needed a small band with a big cup but everyone else seemed to be able to find things that fit them. I was so beyond excited when a few stores started carrying 32 bands and going up to DD or DDD. I thought,"Finally, they're getting it. Big boobs don't only belong to big people!" There's still a long way to go but I am so glad that there are options for people like me now!

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    1. It's so ridiculous that we're trapped in this 34-42 A-D size range because it's just a fraction of the sizes available. We have hundreds of clients who buy 28 and 30 bands up to a K cup and they are women of all ages and proportions. I'm glad the blog has helped you know you're far from alone! We're all about firm bands and big cups here :) xx

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  21. I do agree with you!
    Stores often would categorize me as a petite women. Being 5´21/2 is not easy when it comes to clothes, specially when you are built as a busty women (32G), full hips Hourglass. Its kind of hard to buy pants that don't gap horribly at your back, or buttoned shirts. How ever I do identify more with the plus models than regular sized models. Since I'm short and I am more on the heavier size on the average spectrum. As short USA 12 women I do get to shop at regular stores and some plus size stores. the greatest problem when I shop at Plus size stores is my height.

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    1. My Mum is a plus size petite with a full bust and the fitting requirements are definitely overlooked by lots of designers. Narrower shoulders, fuller busts, larger hips and narrower waists. Adding the height dimension definitely limits your representation and choices further xx

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  22. Oh thank you for this article!
    I'm a 30G, with a 26" waist, tiny hips (34,5") and a big bum (38"). I'm around 5'5 tall, maybe a bit more. I guess I look more or less like a UK10.
    I've got used to the idea I just can't enter a random lingerie shop and pick something from the racks so now I know where and what to look for. So bra-wise, things are quite alright.

    Nonetheless, shopping for clothes is nightmare.
    I'm super picky on designs, even in regular shops. There's also the fact that I'm only 17 and I've loved fashion all my life. Busty clothing brands just don't appeal to me, no matter how well fitting they are. I might pick some of their products when I have to get some work appropriate clothes but I doubt it'll go farther than a few shirts and dresses.
    The only plus for me is that these brands usually avoid crappy materials like polyester (I could write a whole book on my hate for polyester).
    So for now, I try and gamble in the regular stores, but most of the time it's rather unsuccessful. Actually, I've pretty much given up on trousers and dresses.
    I always have to choose between something that fits and something pretty. When I look at the standard size charts I can't help but scratching my head. I'm at least 3 different sizes according to them and yet I don't feel particularly abnormal... I don't know, sometimes I'd just like to wear something that is not a t-shirt nor a skirt :( ln the end, I'm buying more and more bras and less and less clothes!

    And yes, apart from some actress from time to time, we terribly lack in media representation. In the 90s, some models (Laetitia Casta, Cindy Crawford, ...) were a UK10 and nobody would have called them "plus size"! Now there's only Lara Stone (Ashley Smith too, I believe) who has rather big boobs, but I wouldn't say she's representative of the average curvy women...

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    1. I agree that while the emergence of full bust clothing lines are a great step in the right direction, the styles are still more limited than regular fashion. Over time I hope we'll see more diversity in full bust fashion, they just need time to establish and grow. I know lots of my clients have become expert at tailoring waists on trousers and dresses to widen the styles they can wear. Perhaps it's worth getting handy with a sewing machine! xx

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  23. I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this!!

    I'm a UK 10-12 and wear a 30GG bra and definitely don't associate my size and shape as plus size, but so many people class me as this just because of what my bra I say I wear and the shape of my hips. It doesn't half bug me!

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    1. It is the gulf between measurements and reality. The circumference on your 30GG bust might put you in a plus size chart whereas in reality you're 30 band puts you squarely in regular sizes. xx

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  24. Hear hear! I am not thin but not plus-sized. I'm roughly size 12 on top and 6 on bottom and a 34H chest, with incredibly broad shoulders to boot. I don't struggle with body image issues, but I do struggle with clothing. Or really, clothing struggles with me. There is such diversity of bodies, and I would love to see more of them! Even being fatalistically realistic, that modeling is only going to use bodies considered "attrractive," there are still considerably more conventionally attractive body types which are currently not represented.

    On a side, but related, note: I see the same thin to plus-sized gap exists in actual clothing as well. As someone vaguely (proudly!) weirdly-shaped, parts of me are frequently too large for the size large. But moving up to the smallest plus-size in the same garment is a shapeless un-tailor-able tent. The middle-size blindness exists in both representation AND reality.

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    1. Your last line sums the whole thing up perfectly "The middle-size blindness exists in both representation AND reality." xx

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  25. Nice blog. I believe the gap between the thin and plus size is very large, but you can’t say that plus size women doesn’t have right to look attractive. Though the shops are few in numbers but still they exist like the one called Leelach. You will find good modest plus size clothing that makes your body look flatter. So don’t feel bad, if you have a full size figure, you should fell proud that you are blessed with big curves and shapes that most thin women like to.

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  26. I have a classic hourglass figure am probably a US size 6 or 8 right now, and wear a 32DDD bra. It's weird to watch tv and realize that the person with the same figure as me probably weighs 20-30 lbs less.

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