There has been a bit of hoopla this week because an established and respected bra fitter has condemned 'modern' bra sizes as being Vanity Sized. This statement has provoked strong reactions on both sides of the argument - those who say 'yes, bras are vanity sized' and 'no, there is no such thing'.
When I read an isolated statement like "modern bra sizes are a scam" it makes my heart sink a little because I know that thousands of women will read that and feel worried or confused because they don't have a wider understanding of bras, fitting and design. I spend my life submerged in the science, beauty, emotion and practicality of bras so when I read anything about bras I have a wealth of knowledge and experience to bring to the topic; most women don't have this luxury.
Because Butterfly Collection is an online boutique I spend a vast amount of time online and know that while the Internet is a blessing in furthering bra education it can also be a curse because we're bombarded with fragments of information - try conveying the intracacies of bra fitting in 140 characters! Truncating details about bra fitting into a soundbite, tweet or Facebook update takes a great deal of context away from the information and I think this can harm the pursuit of better bra knowledge.
I have concerns about the condemnation of modern bra sizes as being vanity sized because the statement doesn't account for the following facts:
- Very few 'Full Bust Bras' (bras with 28-38 band sizes and D-K cup sizes) existed before the 1990s.
- In the last twenty years almost NO pre-1990s brands have grown to include D+ cups in 28-32 bands (Playtex, Warners and Maidenform are a few examples of companies who have not added full bust sizes to their repertoire) so I'm not exactly sure who the boutique is referring to when saying that bras that used to be labeled as a 36D are now labeled as a 32G.
- In 1958 the invention of Lycra completely revolutionized the design and fit of a bra and yet many companies were still using the 1930s sizing method. The modern garments were completely unrecognizable from the 1930s bras.
- The Plus Four Method was used across the board in England and North America, a system devised for old elastic and boned bras. Modern bras do not need inches to be added to the band to compensate for basic things like breathing!
Bra sizes will never be an exact science because we ladies are unique and infinitely diverse. Bra sizes are a starting point to learn more about your fit and I think the advances and increase in 28-38 D-K bra sizes are a great step forward in good bra fit.
At the very core of my professional ethos is giving women the tools to understand their breasts. I think as professionals we have a duty to give women all the facts so they are empowered not afraid. I know that the boutique at the center of this storm is deeply committed to good bra fit and that a media snippet can be taken hugely out of context. However, I have to come down on the side that says, "No, I don't believe modern bra sizes are a scam, I think they are the beginning of a desperately needed bra revolution that acknowledges there are hundreds of different bra sizes." xx
Response from the boutique
The worst part of what she said was how she explained the so called "vanity sizing" as a way to "make women think they have a smaller ribcage and larger breasts." And these are the "professionals" us women in the US are supposed to go to. It makes me sad that such a well known fitter said this- on national tv no less! Just because there is more selection and a growing understanding how a bras should fit doesn't mean that the new size options are "vanity sized!"
ReplyDeleteIt was certainly surprising Laura. I hope it hasn't dampened your faith in great fit! xx
DeleteThe Gap does vanity sizing so that a size 12 woman feels like she is a size 8. Same with Banana Republic and other low-end store. High end fashion doesn't do this because they don't care if fat people wear their clothes. They actually prefer they didn't. At the end of the day, it's just a SIZE. Women need to be less sensitive. Jeez.
DeleteThat's odd, because I'm the same size at the Gap and every other store. The size charts are the same, too.
DeleteHigh end fashion actually runs LARGER for each size, but it doesn't usually come in as much of a size range.
Men need to stop trolling and trying to make women insecure. Jeez.
Funny that they'd call it "vanity sizing" when so many of us seem to go through so much negative emotion when we first find out our boobs are off the charts!
ReplyDeleteHowever, I have to say that some of the so-called "sister-sized" 40DD/DDDs I own are still a better fit than many of the bras in the 36H zone I've been re-assigned to...in spite of being refitted, experimenting widely in both directions around my new size, trying multiple bras in multiple styles from multiple brands, and sewing minor alterations into the ones that are close to fitting. There's always at least ONE significantly irritating, painful, unsupportive, or unattractive detail about every bra of the MANY that I've tried in my refitted zone. It's not for lack of looking! It's just that my placement, shape, width, weight, etc. are generally better accommodated by bras that are the "wrong" size.
I suspect that the officially "plus-size" bras I wore pre-fitting and still rely on now might have been created with a heavy-breasted woman past her 20s in mind, whereas most of the smaller banded large-cup bras that aren't completely industrial looking often seem to have been designed for women whose breasts are naturally dense and fairly resistant to gravity. So I wonder whether some of us are just as well or even better off in the "wrong size," provided that bra comes from a maker who uses fit models that are shaped something like us. I would love to know more about the role of fit models in the process of bra design!
You have hit a GIANT nail on the head here!! There is a BIG gap in the market for 30-38 band bras for heavy breasts of less dense structure. Bras like Goddess and Elomi are ideal for this breast composition, however, the size range doesn't come down far enough in the band or go up high enough in the cup. I highly recommend Caitlyn if you haven't tried that yet - it's great to heavy breasts. xx
DeleteI can really, really relate to this!!! It seems that the bras that fit me the best and are the most support are ones that aren't made for the small band size range. It seems that there's this basic assumption that if you have large, heavy, soft breasts than you must be in a 34/36+ band, which simply isn't the case for me. Even Fantasie fits significantly better for me than Freya but, yet, they don't carry 28 bands. :(
DeleteI totally agree June - the assumption certainly seems to be that dense breasts live on small bands and soft breasts live on bigger ones - it's simply not true. I have lots of late 30s+ clients who would benefit from a high support, small band style. Fingers crossed it comes into reality soon xx
DeleteYes, I definitely agree. Vanity Sizing in and of itself (not even talking about bras) is a tricky subject and Fashion-Incubator has a lot of interesting points here: http://fashion-incubator.com/archive/the_myth_of_vanity_sizing/
ReplyDeleteBut it doesn't make sense in terms of HOW most companies fit their customers. Victoria's Secret still uses the insane overbust measurement which is certainly not giving customers their "vanity sized" bras. Even companies like Eveden Group often recommend still adding 4" (depending on who you talk to), yet their bras actually fit perfectly without adding any inches at all. So there's some sort of disconnect here. If companies were trying to vanity size than they'd be putting a lot of emphasis on the smaller back sizes, which they absolutely are not doing.
The original suggestion seems to be that what used to be labeled as a 36 band is now labeled as a 32. There is still a big chunk of information missing for me there though. A length that was labeled as 36 and is now labeled as 32 would HAVE to be fitted using very different techniques and we know that many boutiques simply haven't changed their fitting methods for several decades. The math simply doesn't add up. xx
DeleteWho is this established and respected bra fitter ? Ok I'm saying this about the US- not including Canada because I don't know. Where I am( Montana/Wyoming)Maidenform and their other line Charmed you can get 32D/ DD. Their site is kind of different so I went to HerRoom,they are there. Also you can get both lines/brands:sizes on the floor at Macy's.
ReplyDeleteI know that 28-32 bra sizing above a C is not a scam.
I am tiny around. If it was a scam I could fit all those bras at Kmart, Walmart and Target(band wise) they sell right now.
That's a good point Vicki - if the 'modern' bra sizes were a scam then the old stalwart brands who haven't changed their manufacturing or sizes would fit more women, but they don't! I'm not citing the boutique in question but it's had a fair bit of coverage xx
DeleteI don't believe it's vanity sizing. My underbust measures 33 inches so I fit 32 and 34 bands. The fullest part of my bust is 50 inches so I'm either a 32LL or 34KK in UK sizes (thankfully some companies offer those sizes) and a 32R or 34P in US Standard which they don't even make.
ReplyDeleteThank you for sharing your details Jean - it helps other women to know they are not alone and not unusual. You are a prime example that modern bra sizes are very necessary - I dread to think what you would have been fit into 15 years ago. xx
DeleteHi! I just found your blog, and love it! I do have to say, that about six years ago I worked as a "bra fitter" for Macy's and they were still doing bra fit seminars teaching the plus four method. If that isn't saying Macy's is not the place to get properly fitted for a bra, then I don't know what is!
ReplyDeleteGlad you found the blog - I must check out your articles too! xx
DeleteI went to Macy's not long ago on an explorator mission. I told the worker my size (~34H) and she said, there is no way you are that big (as in the H) and that small (as in the band)! I don't know what she thought I was, probably a 38DD or something. I asked her to brink me over the 2 or 3 bras in that size she had, tried them on. Most were a bit small in the cup. Anyway when she saw the bras and then realized that I was correct. Pretty silly....
Delete(I am about 33 underbust, 41.5 bust)
Jame - This is a very familiar story to me. I have almost identical measurements to you (I wear a 32GG) and many boutiques have tried to put me into a 38 band - thank goodness I know that's not right. Thank you for sharing your story xx
DeleteHow strange that they use the term "vanity sizing", when there is so much stigma attached to having a larger bust. These are sizes routinely laughed off as "for porn star ony" and women would be flattered by this? Not to mention that someone who is say a 28J using the +0 method whould still be a hard to find 32H using the traditional +4...
ReplyDeleteSo true Astrid - it's such a battle to get women into the right bra size when there are ludicrous assumptions about what being a 'small band large cup' woman means. If I was being overwhelmed by women wanting to buy D-K cup bras in small back sizes who were too small in the bust to fit them then I could imagine some Vanity sizing but that has never, ever, happened! xx
DeleteI have a friend who claims she is envious of my bra size. I'm a 28G. My friend got fitted using the plus four method and wears a 34C. Actually that was 6 years ago and she has lost weight since then. I have spent hours trying to convince her that we are actually more or less the same size but she just will not believe me.
DeleteLeaving aside the obvious point that it is ridiculous to be envious of someone else's size and unhealthy to spend all your time wishing you were thinner.
My point is, if there is vanity sizing, why one earth is it so difficult for me to find 28G bras when my friend can go into any shop and choose from hundreds of pretty bras in a 34C, even when her ribcage probably measures 28 inches????? That's not vanity sizing - bra companies are convincing my friend that she's fatter than she really is. *exasperated sigh*
I have to agree with this - it was the most confusing part of the segment for me "They wanted you to think your back was smaller and your breasts were bigger" this goes against everything I experience fitting D-K women. Thank you for sharing your experience, I'm sure it will be very familiar to many women xx
DeleteIt is frustrating to hear one individual's opinion (albeit a professional) presented as coming from an industry expert, when it's not even based on real research.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the idea of vanity sizing makes any sense with bras, given that there is a stigma attached to thin women with large breasts. A lot of women simply buy whatever size they normally wear even if it no longer fits. If you have been wearing a 36C all your life and you find that it's slightly larger, most people wouldn't jump to 34D unless it was really uncomfortably large. It's not like jeans where you instantly think "ooh I can fit into a size 10 in these!"
Another part of the issue that seems to be overlooked is the origins of bra sizing. It seems that every retailer, designer and "expert" in the industry has their own reason for insisting that you must add four inches to your underbust measurement. Most of the reasons given for the addition of inches are pure speculation. However, if you read dressmaking books from the 19th and early 20th century, the sizing used for garments fitting the upper body is based on the upper bust measurement, around the top of the chest under the arms. This gives an indication of the frame size, shoulders, arms etc so it's useful in selecting pattern sizes. Women with a larger bust could select the best fitting size for their frame and do a full bust adjustment to accommodate their curves. Rewind a few years to the heyday of the corset, and you obviously have a waist measurement which denotes the size of the garment. When corsets were replaced by bust bodices, it was logical for them to use the same sizing as other women's upper body garments. Hence a size 34 referred to a 34" upper bust measurement.
The next chapter in the evolution of bra sizes comes when fashion dictated that the shoulders and chest should be less restricted, and bras needed to be made with narrow straps to allow more revealing clothes to be worn. Its easy to see how the underbust measurement is more relevant than the upper bust when you have something more like a modern bra that doesn't even cover the upper chest. In order to keep the same sizing however, companies decided to tell women to measure under the bust and add a specified number of inches to arrive at what would have been the above bust measurement.
What has happened to bra sizes since then is still debatable. I'm not sure I buy the vanity sizing theory, but it is undoubtable that bras today are bigger than when the upper bust measurement was used. This is what happens when a measurement becomes detached from its original meaning and becomes an arbitrary number. In another 50-100 years' time, people will be saying: "did you know, men's trouser sizes used to be the waist measurement?!"
Really interesting points Zoggi, thank you so much for taking the time to share this information. xx
Delete"I don't think the idea of vanity sizing makes any sense with bras, given that there is a stigma attached to thin women with large breasts."
DeleteZoggi is right. Lots of women are made to feel stigmatised because they aren't thin with big breasts. Women who are thin with big breasts also feel stigmatised (implants, porn star, 'easy', clothes don't fit, bras don't come in those sizes, etc etc). It's like there's a 'Goldilocks' size - we all desperately want to be a 32C because that's the BEST size.
And then the women who actually are a 32C feel bad because their legs are too short or their hair is too curly or their skin is too wrinkly. Because none of us are Goldilocks.
I'm going to go and bang my head against a great big brick wall now.......
Why does society do this to women?!
Clare
Well said Clare - I think it's important that we take back our happiness and learn to be content, confident and proud of our bodies. It's what made me sad about the Vanity Sizing comment - it piled yet more emotional baggage on top of an already delicate subject. Women need to be comfortable and confident in their bra no matter what the size is. Thank for you for sharing your thoughts xx
DeleteFirst Mrs.B I read the article, and I disagree. Ok I have been sized at Macy's and they do use the 4/5 inch measure, they also do a loose measure.
ReplyDeleteSome history- My grandma was born in early 1900. She had a corset she would wear when she was in early adulthood, it was sized a 36 and a B cup. My cousin wore it a couple of times,she is about the same size.
I could never wear it, I'm short with a short torso and 36 will never fit and forget the cup.
I had a fitting at Dillards last week. They measure different than Macy's . She measured under bust and overbust- under my arms. She was closer to my band in sizing than Macys has ever been. She told me I was between a 32 and 34 bandsize( I disagree). She had me try on several bras, variety of brands. She brought in one T shirt bra that I liked instantly. The cup is very lightly lined 1/16 soft and comfy.
I don't think companies vanity size. I think that some companies view full -figured= full busted women as certain sizes, or nothing under 36 band. There are several companies that dont go below 36 band, and one only sells minimizers mostly. So to them, the comment " Theres no way "you" can be a 32/30/28 etc" , thats why.
Well, I've been following this debate a little. I watched the TV segment from ABC news, I read the article in the UK Daily Mail, I follow Linda on Twitter. And I don't understand, the whole thing is making my head spin!
ReplyDeleteI don't understand what she's actually saying. First it seems like she's being misquoted a little. On Twitter she said "Scam is their word. I just say "they've changed, and women need to be braducated about it!"
Second, she said "someone who used to wear a 36 now needs a 32" because companies have changed the sizes. So is she claiming that a 32 band now actually measures 36 inches? Or that a 36 band used to measure 32 inches? Or is she claiming that the materials have changed so that a 32 band now stretches to 36?
Linda's online bra calculator does not advocate adding inches. I measure 29 underbust and the calculator advised that I wear a 30 band (which I do). So is she saying that she used to advocate the plus four method but now she doesn't? Presumably she thinks that 20 years ago my correct size would have been a 34, but why? Surely if companies were actually using vanity sizing then her own bra calculator would tell me I ought to be wearing a 26 band on my 29 inch ribcage because they'd be trying to convince me I'm thinner than I am, right?!
Third, she said that women should make sure their band is half way between the shoulder and elbow "any lower than that and the band is too loose". I don't understand this - if your band is too loose then it will ride UP not down, right?
I think it's all very confusing! But mainly it's bad journalism - they didn't give her enough time to actually explain her point (or she did and they cut it). The whole TV segment was awful - and the male presenters seemed titilated by it and were very derisive. I have no idea what Linda actually meant. It's produced a sensationalised debate on the basis of a two minute, badly-edited soundbite.
Clare
I totally agree. I couldn't figure out what she was actually trying to say - when did bras fit exactly? There would be swathes of women wearing much smaller bands if this Vanity sizing were true. The segment was awful and the nature of the intro just reinforces the idea that boobs are funny and bras aren't to be taken seriously. The whole thing left me a bit confused.
DeleteThe 'between your shoulder and your elbow' tip was about your nipple line. If your boobs are lower than that your band is too big. As you say the segment was so rushed it was hard to catch the information. xx
Oh wow, just watched the segment on GMA, the whole thing made my skin crawl... not to mention the male anchors treating it like a joke report, ("Haha, boobs, Jenny McCarthy, lol") it was completely uninformative. It overlooks the fact that the size on the bra label doesn't mean a thing if you don't know how to fit your bra correctly. And there's a lot more to it than where your nipples sit in relation to your elbow. If they had volunteers get refitted, why didn't they compare their old sized bras and their new sized bras? It seemed like an excuse to show boobs on morning television, wrapped up in the guise of a consumer awareness-raising piece. It's that kind of confusion that will keep women in the mass market 34-44 A-D range, in the size they've "always worn" when they might benefit from a proper fitting. To me, it pretty much makes sense that a 32" or 34" band will fit my 33" ribcage, but if that's vanity sizing then call me vain. I'd rather be vain than have sore breasts.
ReplyDelete"It's that kind of confusion that will keep women in the mass market 34-44 A-D range" I love that statement Helen. The way GMA edited the piece made it very confusing. With so many women already confused about bra fit and size it doesn't help. Thank you for your excellently made points xx
DeleteThe article sounded like it was saying, " There are no actual 32 and under bands/ big cups really. The bras that are 36DD/DDD have had the tag reprinted to say 32G."
DeleteAll those skeptical of bras that are 32 band and under, E( or DD) cup and over F,G,H, inspect the bras. The band sizes are smaller than 34,36,38 etc and the cups are as big and bigger than the 36/38 + bands.
I think she tried to tell women (all the women, not only those who are DD+ and know how confusing sizing could be sometimes) that if you are, say 34C with +4, you need 30DD because brands changed sizing a while ago and 34C is no good for you any more. Linda called it 'vanity sizing'. Well, for those on small to average half it even could make sense if only most of women knew good fit and all fitters knew good fit. But that's simply not true, so 'vanity sizing' has very little sense, I mean average women could see that jeans are too big instantly and get smaller size, but bras are quite different thing, and you need some braducation to tell that you need sister size with smaller band. So I don't think she is right, but I think she had good intentions.
ReplyDeleteMalica
I totally agree Malica that I think there are good intentions there but between the media butchering of the segment and the unfortunate use of the term Vanity Sizing it became an awkward and unfortunate piece xx
DeleteVanity sizing? rofl! I don't think so. I'm 32 yrs old and have been wearing a bra and/or something to support my bust since I was 12! When I was a teen I was about 60lbs heavier than I am now and fit quite nicely in a 32 band. I lost most of that weight when I was 18 and definitely remember the looseness of those 32 bands. The looseness hasn't change; band haven't gotten bigger and they haven't changed sizes.
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that she came up with this little story just to make it easier for people to accept their smaller band size. A little white lie to tell people because it's easier to say that then to tell someone they've been had their whole life. It's no longer the bra wearer's fault but the manufacturer's thereby displacing "blame" away from the customer making them the victim. This then creates a feeling of helplessness that can then be fixed by the fitter. It creates a state of conciousness in the customer that allows them to be more susceptible to suggestion id est "buy more/spend more".
Perhaps I've analysed this too much but the psychology of it at least to a certain degree I'm sure was premeditated.
Thank you for your thoughts (I love the psychology of bras, it's the greatest driving force behind fit!) I wish the piece was longer and more explanatory because I'm sure there were interesting points to be made. xx
DeleteI can't tell you how many of my friends & female family members look at me like I'm a loon when I try to explain that the plus four method is simply a tremendous failure in fitting, especially (as you point out) with this amazing new invention known as 'elastic'. Plus four certainly seems to be dying a slow death, and we really need to unplug it. I have a 26.5" ribcage—why would I want to wear a 34 band, as fitters have suggested? Might as well wear a hula hoop! And why would I try to shove the 'girls' into a B or C cup when that cup size obviously does not fit well—they are squashed and spill over in the right band size, and don't properly fit into the 34 band? It is so frustrating. If wanting a properly fitting bra instead of constant back, shoulder, and neck pain is 'vanity', so be it!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what she was trying to say—I like her, and always send women to her sizing page as a good start—and suspect she was either taken wildly out of context or, as others have said, simply wasn't given enough time to put it properly. Regardless...oi.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your measurements (it's useful for other women to see that small ribcages really do have larger breasts). The boutique in question has said that a full explanation of the points will be coming so I'm looking forward to reading that. xx
Delete"well outside the 34-42 A-D"
ReplyDeleteUh, try 34-38 A-D. As a 40C, there are very few options in that range and most are "industrial" bras.
I've tried the new sizing - which puts me anywhere from a 36-40 B-E. All I have to say is "WTF!?"
Basically, I have to try on each style, which makes it tough because most of the ones that fit me (the new 36/38 DD/E sizing) aren't available in stores.
So I'm a smaller band and larger cup, but I still can't find bras. Bras are aimed towards thinner women (band size), fatties like me are hosed. :(
It can be really tough figuring out what the best size and style is for you (especially when there aren't stores nearby who carry enough sizes to try). It's really hard for women with small ribcages to find bras too. Being a 36/38 means you're in a good size range to find lots of bras. I would suggest trying a 36E first if your 40C gives you good cup coverage. This will give you good band support and equal cup volume (but with lift!) We have lots of 36E options
Delete(and you can return or exchange bras so you can get your best fit). There are definitely bras out there that can make you feel much more comfortable, chances are they're online though. Hope that helps xx
The boutique involved in the Vanity Sizing debate has issued a response about the reaction to the GMA piece v RESPONE
ReplyDelete"Basically, I have to try on each style, which makes it tough because most of the ones that fit me (the new 36/38 DD/E sizing) aren't available in stores.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm a smaller band and larger cup, but I still can't find bras. Bras are aimed towards thinner women (band size), fatties like me are hosed. :(
"
Come out west Mt/WY/SD area,those band sizes/cup sizes are everywhere, and in almost every style you want and pretty. Upper department store and lower end department store. In the area I live, 36/38 DD,DDD,DDDD is pretty common. In one lower end dept store , they have CK look alikes if I name the company I'm sure many would know. Most bras where I am DD and over are only 36 and up....atm.
I should go through the two major d -stores in my city and take pics of what very available in the undergarment section, and what is viewed as the childrens/ little girl section
I have the same bust and underbust measurements I did in 1998, which, last I checked, was more than ten years ago. Back then I bought bras according to the "plus four" rule. According to Linda, they should have fit perfectly, right? Wrong. The band rode up in the back, I had "side boob" and "quad boob", and the gore stood far away from my chest. In fact, they fit exactly like that size would fit me now. I bought them because I didn't know better and thought that was how they were supposed to fit.
ReplyDelete