When Mr Butterfly and I set off for Las Vegas last month we were super excited to attend a big lingerie show and get up close and personal with lots of brands. We definitely met lots of interesting and passionate people at the Curve Show but this was interwoven with some glaring problems that dog the lingerie industry and keep women from their best-fitting bras.
Here are the FOUR big bra problems I encountered:
1. The use of multiple Ds is keeping North American women away from embracing larger cup letters
2. Not enough brands understand the difference between Full Bust and Plus Size bras
3. Sizing for Full Bust women is still wildly inaccurate
4. Online boutiques are massively overlooked by brands and women alike
 |
| It was a privilege to attend the Freya Fitting Seminar, however, it raised more questions than it answered. |
1. Who Wants to be a 12D? Not me!
As most of you know I'm an adopted North American having lived here for 7 years but I'm originally from England. I had never heard an F cup referred to as a DDD before I moved to Canada and it baffled me why multiple Ds were used for bra sizes. Figuring out how the multiple D system translated into UK sizes took me months.
When I attended the Freya Fitting Seminar in Las Vegas, the fitter referred to the range of sizes produced by Freya as going from D to 12D (or K in UK sizing). Using Ds to describe sizes all the way up to a K is ludicrous and harmful in my opinion:- No one else in the world uses this multiple D system so it makes it harder for women to figure out which bras from other countries will fit them (something they need to know considering how few North American brands design for G+ boobs).
- Keeping women trapped in D cups perpetuates the stigma that anything over a D cup is huge (check out my blog 'Breaking the D Cup Barrier' to understand why this is a problem)
2. Full Bust Bras Aren't Necessarily Big Bras
What's the difference between Full Bust and Plus Size bras? Plus Size refers to your body size and not your boobs. You can be plus sized and have a small bust. Check out the chart below to see an approximate breakdown of Regular, Full Bust and Plus Sizes:
A lot of brands we spoke to were eager to tell us about the addition of G and H cups to their range, however, very few of them had these cups in bands under a 34. Adding larger cups is a good step but in the full bust market only adding 2 band sizes is only half a job. Brands still need to figure out where the Full Bust and Plus Size markets differ. Check out Holly Jackson's review of Full Bust vs Plus Size.
3. How I wish there was a single sizing method!
I understand that no two garments can ever measure exactly the same. The machinery you produce the garment on, the style of the garment and the average weight/height of the models in your country all affect the eventual size. However, in the bra world the advice on size (and measuring for size) differs wildly.
During the Freya Fitting Seminar I raised the question that UK DD bras are always shown as being equivalent to a US DD whereas in fact they almost ALWAYS fit like a US D cup. A UK E cup fits like a US DD cup and a DDD fits like an F cup. The fitter agreed that she also found this and yet every UK size chart lists a DD the same as a US DD.
We were handed a Freya Sizing Chart and I was really surprised to find that their chart suggested adding inches (in one instance the classic +Four Method). For a dedicated Full Bust brand like Freya I was so surprised to see them recommending adding inches to your band.
 |
| I was undoubtedly the annoying kid asking too many questions. "Why do you add inches...?" |
Considering Freya makes 28 and 30 bands I was surprised not to see them on the list so I asked "Who do you fit into 28 and 30 bands?" The answer totally floored me - "Juniors". What?! Has Freya been online and read how many fully grown women review their 28 back bras? The seminar was supposed to be conducted by Frederika Zappe, Freya's senior fitter, but she was ill so we had a last minute stand-in fitter who was perhaps caught a little off-guard, but surely she should know that women wear 28 back Freya bras.
If a flagship Full Bust company like Freya is adding inches and marginalizing 28 and 30 backs then the industry is in more denial than I thought.
4. We Were the Ugly 'Online' Sisters!
When we set up Butterfly Collection I very quickly realized that North America wasn't used to the idea of selling bras online. Brands told me time and time again "We don't sell to online" "We have no need for online boutiques." It was very frustrating but I knew that what I was trying to achieve (bringing hard to find Full Bust bras to Canadian and American women) was even more important and necessary. How are you supposed to shop for your HH boobs if you live in a remote village in the North West Territories!!
 |
| My passion revolves around giving women the tools to understand their breasts and bra size |
We continue to come up against 'Online Fear' and indeed some brands at Curve simply wouldn't talk to us about their lingerie because we're online. One brick and mortar store owner actually said to me "So you don't have to think about fit then being online." This summed up for me the lack of knowledge about online boutiques. We have to empower our customers even more to understand their size and styles. Fit should be everything to every boutique whether online or off.
When I spoke to brands and other store owners about the online discussions around Full Bust bras, removing +Four as the standard measuring technique and competitions like Star in a Bra most looked at me like I was spouting gibberish. Being so far away from the conversations (and women) who rely on the Internet for their bra knowledge, support and product is a mistake that some may realize too late.
 |
| The heaven that is Claudette's Neon Green Mesh bra will be coming to Butterfly this spring! |
Our trip to Vegas was thoroughly worthwhile (we got to see Claudette's neon green mesh bra for goodness' sake!) While the lack of knowledge about Full Bust bras is frustrating it also makes me even more determined to grow Butterfly Collection and set the tone for how Full Bust women everywhere should be treated. xx
Thank you for this. I always am a bit upset when I hear people say that you can't find your size by measuring yourself/using an online calculator and online information, because first of all, most women don't have access to a store that can fit them, and second of all, even if they do find a store, they're no more likely to get lucky with a good fitter than if they'd ventured online! And online shopping really makes more sense, especially for people on tighter budgets, as prices in shops are often double the online prices and things go out of stock SO quickly in stores.
ReplyDeleteAlso, that is fascinating (and baffling) about the D/DD/E conundrum. My sister wears between a DD and an E and she has had so many WEIRD experiences--sometimes the bra will come up far too small, other times it is far too large, and I am guessing some of this comes from switching between Bravissimo and American Figleaves, etc. I will inform her of this because it is something we have discussed at length and been very confused by!
Hey Lady! I feel really bad for D/DD/E women because there is a huge amount of discrepancy around those sizes, more so than J cups for example! Knowing that an American DD fits more like an E than a UK DD might shed some light for your sister.
DeleteI am currently writing a blog about 'measurement snobbery' because it's a total myth that by simply walking in a physical store you're going to get an accurate fitting. Glad to know someone else feels the same way!! xx
It's really disturbing that someone representing Freya was giving out such misguided information. As for that size chart, I'm baffled that anyone would be less shocked by 12 Ds in their size than one K! Even when you get rid of those and look at the other columns, it's a nightmare trying to remember/deduce what size you need to look for in different countries and brands. It's yet another problem standing between women and the right fit.
ReplyDeleteTotally agreed Laura. Considering we have a much more global community (especially when it comes to shopping) the lingerie industry could do a lot more to 'globalize' their sizes. I still think keeping women 'confused' about their size allows some brands and manufacturers to be lazy about educating consumers about how their bras fit. Thanks for commenting xx
DeleteI absolutely do not understand the multiple-D sizing labels that they use here in the U.S. It was very confusing for me when I first was trying to figure out my correct size (the DDD and DDDD labels were much more confusing than a simple F or G would've been, not to mention the differences in the US vs UK sizing). It certainly doesn't help the notion that D and DD cups are enormously huge, implying that additional D's must be tacked on because D is the highest one can go.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised that Freya used the "12x D" and "+4" methods of thinking. I expect much better out of them! And I'm certainly not a "junior", thank you very much!
There are way too many confusing factors and I'm not sure that all of them are necessary. The US comes off far worse than other countries - you essentially have 3 sizing methods (4 if you count European sizing) going on in one country.
DeleteI was really deflated by the Freya fitting seminar because I previously had them in my Pioneering for Busty Women category and they didn't live up to the title :(
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if that's why Fantasie doesn't have 28 bands, I hadn't put those two together. That combined with adding inches to band sizes really changed my view of Freya's approach to small bands larger cups.
DeleteRealistically I know that there will never be one sizing system but surely there could be more transparency in how sizes translate internationally - we can only keep pushing and educating.
Thanks for commenting! xx
Oh, wow, this post makes me see red! If there are any manufacturers that you want me to send me Underbust Survey too, please let me know their names. It really saddens me to hear Freya telling women to add inches. As someone with a 28" underbust and currently about a 28J if I go up just one band size for the day I have immediate back pain! Going up two back sizes would definitely lead to me getting an eventual breast reduction. Especially, in the higher cup sizes it's absolutely vital to wear a correctly fitting band. I do believe there are a few women (emphasis on very, very few) who need to wear a band size up due to a ribcage that widens as you go up from your underbust but I'd so that's quite rare.
ReplyDeleteIn reality from what I've seen from my underbust survey is that 28's are very common (and definitely NOT just from teens! but even for women who are overweight and obese).
It also gets me that there's this insane assumption that small backs don't need larger cup sizes. Again in my survey I found that that was absolutely NOT true and the range of cup sizes needed was very consistent across the most common band sizes needed (26-36 and to a lesser extent 24's and 38's).
I also just can't fathom this idea that women are so stupid that we can't figure out how to do proper fitting on our own. What!?! If anything I've had to ignore all the bra fitters that put me in ill-fitting bras for years that were too big in the back, and extremely unsupportive. It wasn't until I started doing my own research that I found bras that fit.
Whew, I'm trying to breathe now. :)
June - your survey on the sizes was inspiring (for anyone who hasn't read it check it out here http://braslessinbrasil.blogspot.com/2012/03/underbust-survey-part-1-data-range.html )
DeleteIt drives me crazy that it's assumed women can't work out their size. A good bra is fitter is a wonderful asset, someone who can suggest styles, explain different constructions and help you solve any problems you're having. This doesn't have to be instead of knowing your bra sizes, it can be as well as!
Hope you've caught your breath! It's passion like yours that will make a difference to the industry. xx
You included something that I tend to forget, and it is a great reminder. US sizing will include a AA which equals out to a UK A. I tend to forget that when recommending sizes, especially when working with the multiple Ds. I find that a lot of US buyers have a hard time understanding why they buy a 32H in Wacoal but a 32G in Freya. I had someone tell me that Freya bras run large because she buys those sizes. I had to use the terms of D to explain to her why they are the same size, using two different sizing systems, and how they hold the same breast volume in the cups. She found it very frustrating and I do not blame her. When you are a newly sized full bust from a larger bandsize it is hard to make sense of all these different sizing methods. (On a side note, I shared this on a forum I belong to, hopefully it will help illustrate to some others how are trying to find the correct size in UK bras when ordering from the US. I hope you don't mind.)
ReplyDeleteThat size chart you posted kind of explains why Freya is resistant to a 26 band. According to their chart, a 25-27" would be a 30, a 23-25" would be a 28, and a 21-23" would be a 26 band. I can see how that appears impossibly small. Horribly frustrating! Especially because their 28 bands stretch so much. Have you contacted Freya about the product you received? I wonder if it is something used for the US market alone because we are so fixated with adding inches.
I haven't contacted Freya about the sizing issue but that's a great idea. It hadn't occurred to me that the chart may have been a North American version designed to 'fit in' with the adding inches mentality - you'd think Freya had a universal approach to fitting but this suggests not! xx
DeleteOh wow. What a difference it made to have Freddy as the instructor for the CurveNY class I took. When I asked about that sizing chart at the end of the handout, she said that they suggest adding 2 inches to a woman's underbust measurement. So I asked about the women who wear 28" bands, and she said they are women who measure 26" underbust. She also acknowledged that there are some women who need 26" bands.
ReplyDeleteI could tell that you guys were having a totally different experience from yours and from Treacle's tweets. I found the seminar very disheartening so perhaps the fitter was just very unprepared. I'm still not sure why Freya would recommend adding inches especially as their bands are so generous to begin with. Thanks for commenting Darlene xx
DeleteThe last time I had a bra fitting done it was by Freddy. Though she said the 28F I came in wearing fit me perfect on my 25/26" ribcage, she did acknowledge that it fit me best on the smallest eye closure. I didn't get measured though, so there was no adding inches. But I'm sure if I came in wearing a 32 or 34 she might have. She claims to wear a size 32 band herself, and if you've ever seen her in person she's quite tiny in frame size. So I don't know what to believe...does she agree that sizes smaller than 30 exist for developed or full busted women who are not 13 years old, or not?
ReplyDeleteThat's a really good question. I know for many smaller busted women they need a bigger band because their breasts are set closer together so the band needs to 'reach' their boobs as it were.
DeleteI've heard nothing but good things about Freddy and as I say we didn't have her on the day. As a whole though Freya needs to get consistent on its messaging about under 30 bands because they are definitely not junior sizes! Thanks for taking time to comment xx
Great article! I'm always so happy to find fellow like-minded bra fit folks out there. As for Freddy's band size, while she is certainly petite, she is also a former dancer and may have a particularly muscular ribcage or possibly it just expands more when she breathes due to her training. It all goes back to the understanding that fit is SO not about the size on the tag - it's about what works best on your unique body.
ReplyDeleteThanks again for the great article!
Ali Cudby
(Author of Busted! The Fab Foundations Guide to Bras That Fit, Flatter and Feel Fantastic)
Thanks for commenting Ali. I still have your book on my list of must reads (when I get a minute!) xx
DeleteThat Freya advocates adding inches is incredibly...flabbergasting to me. I'm a 26.5" ribcage and wear 28 Freyas on the smallest hook from day one! Curvy Kates and Panaches fit me better at a 30 band, but Freyas are so elastic that I need a 26 or smaller back. And this has been getting worse since I started wearing DD+ bras in 2006: my 2006 Freya Mitzy in 30FF has a smaller band than even my 2011 Freya Deco in 28G. Decos supposedly run tight, and my 2006 Mitzy has seen many more wears than the Deco. (I have since retired both, because neither are small enough in the band.)
ReplyDeleteI have yet to find a Panache or Curvy Kate that fits me as well in the boobs as Freya does. So I just resign myself to modifying the band on my own, but I now refuse to pay full price for a bra that I will have to resew to fit me right. I can't give Freya up, but they're not worth all my money.
So sorry for replying to this sooner. You are one of thousands of women who really do need smaller band sizes. The Band Project are working on raising awareness about small band sizes to try and change the industry standards so perhaps we'll see some change xx
DeleteI've had two TERRIBLE in person bra fitting experiences and a two WONDERFUL online fitting experiences. All it took was my tape measure and a picture that I sent to customer service. Based on how I'm feeling in the bra I have now (38F but customer service said 38G but I'd already started wearing it, so I have 3 more coming in 38G), there's no WAY I would go back to trying to find a bra in a department store where 1) the staff really don't know anything about bra fitting and 2) they don't carry more than about 5 cup sizes and 7 band sizes.
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad you have found the benefits of online fitting. With all the communication tools available online you can get amazing fitting information and help. Of course it's different from an in-person fitting but it's more specialized and often more effective! xx
DeleteI can't imagine adding inches to Freya. They're looser than any other brand I've tried. I'm actually considering subtracting inches from my rib cage measurement for my next purchase. The bra shifts around on me a little during the day.
ReplyDeleteI always size down in Freya because the bands are so generous. Worth a try on your next Freya purchase xx
Delete